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The illegals problem I feel strongly against. I am an immigrant and came here legally. I look white and am American because of my duel citizenship but I really really think that if you come here illegally you should go back home.
MasterP said:
I have mixed feelings about this though. I know in a very short time it will cripple the Democrat party and hurl them out of power for at least a decade or two but the cost of that would be halting the medical research programs and reverting medical care back to 1930s standards. As good as those pros sound they just don’t outweigh the cons.I kinda sorta agree with this, but I don’t think the Democrats will be damaged for a decade. These cycles happen very quickly. Four years ago, all the pundits were talking about “the collapse of the Democrat party.” Four years later, it’s the Republicans who are in trouble. I think the Democrats are about to hit tough times, but they will recover within a few years.
YouWinGameOver said:
The illegals problem I feel strongly against. I am an immigrant and came here legally. I look white and am American because of my duel citizenship but I really really think that if you come here illegally you should go back home.I agree 100%
If you are not here legally and are not paying taxes, while you have children here and let them go to school here and my taxes pay for your child to go to school here?….No….GTFO
adam37 said:
I agree 100%If you are not here legally and are not paying taxes, while you have children here and let them go to school here and my taxes pay for your child to go to school here?….No….GTFO
Yes. I particularly hate the ones who come here prego and have their kids on us soil then the kids are automatically citizens.
here masterp you should sign up on this site: http://responsiblehealthreform.org/
its a great site because it bashes the current plan while offering no alternatives save for “Both Democratic and Republican members of Congress have offered alternative plans to solve the health care crisis that would not include the creation of an expensive, bureaucratic government-run option. Unfortunately, they do not hold the positions of power on the committees most influential in crafting health reform legislation, and their ideas have garnered less attention.”
Nickname said:
Yeah there will be waiting lists mainly for non-critical surgery and elective surgery. Critical surgery will still be a priority as always. BTW you already have to wait for some of that stuff anyways so yeah…Very rarely do you have to wait for anything.
Communist Broadcast Station said:
The reality?“You would have a greater chance of being killed by a Death Star in one of the Star Wars movies than you would being killed by a government-run death panel, which is to say they don’t exist,” Oberlander said.
Ok any stupid enough to believe CBS needs a clue. Regardless, I’ll bet my IRA that within 20 years of this program creation there’ll be a panel or “body” that decides who get’s surgeries and who has to wait, who is too old to get care and who isn’t. If you’re determined to be too old to get a transplant and are instead prescribed cheap pain meds for the remainer for your life, that panel just killed you. That makes them a death panel.
You can’t tell me you are nieve enough to believe that when money starts running low they won’t cut services. Medicare/medicaid has cost 9-10 times as much as originally projected, meaning in 20-30 years the budget for our healthcare will be more than the military spending. Not only is that unsustainable, it’s extremely dangerous, unless you speak Russian or Chinese.
Nickname said:
LOL you used fox news polling… I found it online while looking for sources against what you had to say. just for LOLs I will give the CBS (liberal) alternativeThat’s the thing though, Fox does very little polling and typically hire outside companies to do it. The survey you found, which was NOT the one I was talking about, was done by Opinion Dynamics. The CBS poll you’re referring to was done entirely by CBS and is inherently biased, as any poll done in-house by news company would be.
Nickname said:
Anyways… here is a slightly older poll but I think it actually hits right between what we both are saying: http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/19/hea…poll/index.htmlI mean I think that speaks for itself there that even though people rate their coverage as good doesn’t necessarily mean they are happy with the cost or happy with the system at large.
True enough but if you ask PS3 owners about their experience, the vast majority will say they are happy with the console but when you ask them if they liked the price I imagine very few will say yes. The high price is there for a reason, because there’s more underneath the surface than meets the eye, same goes with every aspect of life.
If you get what you want out of something, the price shouldn’t matter. Nothing is free and when it comes to healthcare you ALWAYS get what you pay for. Would you rather see a neurosurgeon that charges $100,000 or one that charges $1,000? I mean I guess it’s your brain but I hope you get my point.
Nickname said:
Oh and finally, pol of americans vs canadians on their healthcare: http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/…ives/175523.aspI don’t know why you posted that, it destroys your own arguments.
Quote:
But nearly a quarter of Canadians surveyed have traveled, or know somebody who has ventured outside Canada to get access to health care services.Quote:
The satisfaction level changes when it comes to going under the knife. Asked which system would provide access to surgery “as soon as possible,” just 32 percent of Canadians opted for their own system: 41 percent answered the American health care system.Quote:
During budget crises in Canada, patients have faced months-long waits for such surgeries as hip transplants and heart bypass operations.Quote:
A second finding indicated impatience at the speed of health care delivery in the “Great White North.”Quote:
Two-in-five Canadians (40 percent) answered that they would pay out-of-pocket to have access to health care services in another country if they could, a view shared by just 28 percent of Americans.In 20-30years there are going to be plenty of “death panels” or “judgement panels” regarding every issue because that was where we as a world have been headed these last 30 years.
NuRayZ said:
1.) The government isn’t forcing the pharmaceutical companies to lower their prices. The Companies themselves are saying they can lower the prices. Also, think about all the money wasted on named brand medication. Generic is just as effective any form and a lot cheaper too. These pharmaceutical companies willing to work with the government, to supply more people with cheaper medication, and in turn probably make more money; it’s not like we are sticking a gun in their face.So if they lower prices how does that make them more money? The people who need them are already getting them, either through insurance, medicaid, partnerships, or out of pocket expense. That just doesn’t make sense.
Also, I like how you assume every drug has a generic alternative. You obviously don’t know how generics work or why there’s a delay before they are released. If they released a cancer cure pill tomorrow there wouldn’t be a generic for years and it has absolutely nothing to do with cost, need, or supply.
Also, Obama has a LOT of behind closed doors meetings. None of us really know why the AARP is sponsoring this and many of the medical “unions” that are have been losing members right and left. Any company or group that has come to the table to make deals on this have done so for their own hides because they know if they oppose this and it does go through they’ll have no say but if they help and if fails they won’t be punished. Opposing Obama is a lose-lose situation, almost reminds me Chicago politics.
NuRayZ said:
2.) Premiums. Why the hell are they being raised so god *edited* much? Part of it has to do with the above statement.None of it has to do with the statement above. Drug costs aren’t the problem with healthcare costs.
NuRayZ said:
Some insurance companies will only allow people to get named brand medication, because it’s more expensive.Yeah maybe a very tiny minority. Most prefer you get generics.
NuRayZ said:
When someone has to decide whether to put food on the table or buy medicine for their child, it’s time for *edited*ing reform.I have yet to met someone in this situation that didn’t own a nice car, or a big screen TV, or a boat, or spend thousands every year on beer and smokes. And I met a LOT of poor people a few summers back.
NuRayZ said:
People in AMERICA should have the assurance that they will be able to work hard, and provide for their family; without getting screwed over by insurance companies.You are guaranteed life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. That is all. No where does it say you are guaranteed that someone else will pay for your healthcare. If someone that partied in high school, didn’t go to college, and has 3 kids by age 25 can’t afford healthcare, what are we supposed to do? We can’t subsidize EVERYONE’S bad decisions in life. I’m sorry they’re in a bad way, I truely am and feel for them, but the vast majority of people directly cause their situations in life and if yours happens to be bad you can’t expect someone else to dig into the money they want to spend on their family so that you can continue your unsustainable lifestyle.
Even for those who’ve changed, 2 years of responsible living can’t offset 8 years of completely not caring. It’s like that in every country on this planet.
NuRayZ said:
How can you sit there and defend insurance companies, when hundreds of thousands die every year because they were uninsured, OR RATHER kicked off their insurance plan because the insurance companies found them not profitable.Here’s a better one, how many are saved because their insurance company paid for their care. Before you make outrageous, and completely retarded, statements please at least look things up.
Go find how many are saved and how many are killed by private insurance companies, with LEGIT sources. GL.
NuRayZ said:
4.) Insurance profits. Okay, yes, they are allowed to make a profit. But how much? And at what expense? At the expense of millions who get sick and die every year without health insurance?Millions don’t die every year over health insurance. Learn2facts.
I’m not going to even both commenting on how much a CEO of a successful company was paid in stock options. Again, you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding. CEOs are paid in stock options because it gives them an incentive to make the company successful. If the company fails, their stock becomes worthless. If the CEO makes the company succeed then the stock options he’s paid in become even more valuable.
In reality, this is the fairest form of compensation for a CEO. Of course, since he was being successful that makes him a bad guy. Lord knows if you succeed in this country you’re going straight to Hell. No exceptions.
Nickname said:
here masterp you should sign up on this site: http://responsiblehealthreform.org/its a great site because it bashes the current plan while offering no alternatives save for “Both Democratic and Republican members of Congress have offered alternative plans to solve the health care crisis that would not include the creation of an expensive, bureaucratic government-run option. Unfortunately, they do not hold the positions of power on the committees most influential in crafting health reform legislation, and their ideas have garnered less attention.”
Have you seen the Republican proposals? They all include tort reform as the primary means of lowering costs. Right now malpractice insurance and lawsuits are one of the biggest reasons cost is so high. The instant something doesn’t go according to plan the patients sue a doctor and get tens of millions for something that in reality is still likely correctable. Sure a death is unfortunate but how likely is someone to die at a rural family practice? Not very. The reality is most doctors never have a lawsuit filed against them. So why do general practicioners and family doctors have to pay $150-200,000 a year in malpractice insurance, regardless of history?
For example, the family doctor I’ve had my whole life wasn’t able to deliver me because the insurance rate for deliveries was more than he made doing them. That was over 20 years ago. Before he was forced to retire (mild stroke) the insurance rates came up in a discussion and he said nearly 40% of his pay went to malpractice insurance. Since he owned the practice he was able to pay his doctors more to offset their insurance costs but that’s not the point. The point is that despite the fact he’d never had a lawsuit filed against him his cost of simply being a doctor were higher than most of us could imagine. Imagine if engineers or programmers had to pay just 20% of their income to an insurance company to cover damage done if their work went wrong. You’d have a revolt.
If we can make it less costly for doctors to do their work the overall cost of their work will come down. If the cost of their work comes down, the cost of insurance goes down. If the cost of unsurance goes down, this entire debate becomes moot.
Also, there have been several attempts by Republicans to put tort reform amendments in the Democrat bills. All have been voted down on party lines. Why is that? It’s not because it’s not needed, any doctor will tell you that. Mayhaps because the vast majority of congress is comprised of lawyers.
MasterP said:
Millions don’t die every year over health insurance. Learn2facts.sorry i meant to say millions stay sick and/or die over health insurance. More sick than death obviously
NuRayZ said:
sorry i meant to say millions stay sick and/or die over health insurance. More sick than death obviouslyThat may be true but like I said in my last post, if we can lower the cost doctors have to pay to practice medicine it will also lower the cost to visit the doctor. Even if insurance doesn’t go down for a while, if the cost of visiting a doctor can be cut in half then people will be more willing to pay out of pocket to go.
Lack of tort reform is why the majority of doctors are opposed to this. The unions aren’t but like I said members are leaving them in droves because they’re fighting to push their own agenda as opposed to representing the wishes of doctors.
I mean think about it, if a doctor is paid less for the same service (similar to medicare) and have to pay the same fees to practice then that means less or no profit. To make up for it they’ll push people through the clinics as fast as possible to make up for lost revenue. This drains the government budget faster than anticipated because all those people who built up illnesses for decades are now being treated all at once and as fast as doctors can manage. Next the government will cut back and make doctors see less people while they attempt to balance the healthcare budget. This creates a “first come, first served” scenario which means people wait in lines before clinics open to be seen. Having been unable to be seen, people will start making appointments weeks and eventually months in advance.
And that my friend is how easy it is to go from an ideal utopian healthcare system to the nightmare Republicans are warning you about. Notice that nothing in that scenario is far fetched or a far stretch from reality, it’s an entirely logical progression starting with 2 known problems that will exist under Obamacare, forced medicare style pricing and high overhead costs such as malpractice insurance. If the paperwork is anything like medicare then it’s likely to actually increase the amount of paperwork and forms they have to fill out rather than reduce it but that’s neither here nor there.
Did I mention this congress doesn’t know how to make anything simple? The cash for clunkers application was around 100 pages long and completely destroys a fully functional vehicle. Sure they’re old but Goodwill and other organizations would have loved to give those away to poor people but instead we’re destroying the engine and tossing them in a scrap yard. The scrap yard owners are livid over this because apparently the most valuable part in a scrap car is the engine. With the value of metal being as low as it is it’s almost not worth it to them to take C4C cars.
adam37 said:
I agree 100%If you are not here legally and are not paying taxes, while you have children here and let them go to school here and my taxes pay for your child to go to school here?….No….GTFO
even me? =[
YouWinGameOver said:
The illegals problem I feel strongly against. I am an immigrant and came here legally. I look white and am American because of my duel citizenship but I really really think that if you come here illegally you should go back home.Illegals get healthcare under Obama’s plan. In fact 25% of the initial recipients will be illegals.
MasterP said:
Illegals get healthcare under Obama’s plan. In fact 25% of the initial recipients will be illegals.Glad our taxes dollars get to support them MORE
don’t hate the player, hate the game.
They are here because WE hire them. Democrats and Republicans both. We need to stop hiring them, simple as that. Although not so simple. What is the penalty for hiring illegal immigrants? They need to have sting operations where they catch employers hiring fake illegals. Like dateline’s pedowatch.
Tom B. comes in, “do you know what you are doing”
Joe shmoe: “I’m painting my house?”
Tom: “You are breaking the law, using illegals to do your ‘painting'”
LOL
NuRayZ said:
They are here because WE hire them.Just because they’re here doesn’t mean we have to give them food, schooling, and healthcare.
None of those are constitutional rights.
MasterP said:
None of those are constitutional rights.Then why does the government do them?
Oh yea, it shouldn’t.
i just dont think that they should get the same benefits a regular citizen does bi partisan of whatever party you associate yourself with
MasterP said:
Just because they’re here doesn’t mean we have to give them food, schooling, and healthcare.None of those are constitutional rights.
neither is there anything that says we have to be egocentric
…egocentrism comes with human nature. America strives to be different by being the same and whether it wants to realize that is up for discussion as well. With that said Illegals need to GTFO.
By the way, those “death panels” that “didn’t exist” were just removed from the bill. So nice that conservatives have been berated and dragged through the mud over this because “it doesn’t exist” when in fact it did exist. Kind of makes you wonder what else they’re saying about this might be true…
One of the Finance Committee’s own members commented that “We dropped end-of-life provisions from consideration entirely because of the way they could be misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly.”
That same member also noted “The bill passed by the House committees is so poorly cobbled together that it will have all kinds of unintended consequences, including making taxpayers fund healthcare subsidies for illegal immigrants” and said that the end-of-life provision in those bills would pay physicians to “advise patients about end-of-life care and rate physician quality of care based on the creation of and adherence to orders for end-of-life care.”
NuRayZ said:
neither is there anything that says we have to be egocentric
Egocentric is assuming that everyone else should pay for your illnesses. What gives you the right to have your healthcare paid for by me?
Because I am a human being and although I have *edited*ed up in my life I don’t deserve to die from something when I could have had a simple surgery
MasterP said:
By the way, those “death panels” that “didn’t exist” were just removed from the bill. So nice that conservatives have been berated and dragged through the mud over this because “it doesn’t exist” when in fact it did exist. Kind of makes you wonder what else they’re saying about this might be true…One of the Finance Committee’s own members commented that “We dropped end-of-life provisions from consideration entirely because of the way they could be misinterpreted and implemented incorrectly.”
That same member also noted “The bill passed by the House committees is so poorly cobbled together that it will have all kinds of unintended consequences, including making taxpayers fund healthcare subsidies for illegal immigrants” and said that the end-of-life provision in those bills would pay physicians to “advise patients about end-of-life care and rate physician quality of care based on the creation of and adherence to orders for end-of-life care.”
you do realize that originally all the bill actually said was that it would cover OPTIONAL end-of-life consultations should people decide they wanted to make those decisions with their doctors, right? No different than signing a DNR now; the whole point was that the insurance would cover the consultation, thats it. Nobody was forced to choose how they want to die or anything like that.
If we manage to exclude illegal immigrants from benefiting from healthcare, I dont see a logical reason to oppose the bill.
Though, illegal immigrants compose about half of the people who would be receiving free healthcare so thats probably gonna *edited* a lot of people off who support it.
Hi guys, my name is Kaz-Ka and Im new to this forum… lol. I’m bored and read all that was said but I only have to comment on 2 things:
MasterP said:
Yeah maybe a very tiny minority. Most prefer you get generics.Actually, from what I was told by my fiance’s neurologist at Raleigh Neurology, they actually prefer you buy “Name Brands”. Supposedly, from what she said, generics are more likely to be defective than the name brands (somewhere between 15% to 25% more likely to be defective but dont quote me on that, she told me this last month but I believe that’s accurate)
MasterP said:
I have yet to met someone in this situation that didn’t own a nice car, or a big screen TV, or a boat, or spend thousands every year on beer and smokes. And I met a LOT of poor people a few summers back.When you transfer to NC State, let me give you a tour around Durham sometime, it’ll change your mind on this subject. I mean hell, I personally know someone who was in a situation like this. Take your medicine and get better or sell them and put food on the table. And unfortunately, this guy didn’t even have a car, he had to have his son walk 5 miles from their house to get him a ride to the hospital.
So it looks like he is folding…I don’t mind as long as we get something, because some sort of reform is better than doing nothing. I swear I hate you republicans so much sometimes
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