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So, I thought it might be necessary to make a clarification post regarding what transpired today on the server. It must have been around 5pm PST when it happened, but I thought I’d give a run down of the event and try and make sense of it all.
The server was currently on de_dust. There were at least 20 players on the server, and the Terrorist side was complaining that the game was uneven. As it is, de_dust is a difficult map to play. It requires lots of team strategy and no hesitation. Regardless of this, the teams did seem a little uneven, and so I swapped sides to try and help with the balance. Kuros also did some admin swapping to try and make things better, but the situation was never resolved. Lots of players were complaining that they didn’t want to play the map and so we proposed an alternative. The popular demand seemed to be that they would rather be playing de_dust2.
Curiously, I started a vote to see how many people on the server actually wanted to a) switch maps and
switch it to de_dust2. The results were that (17) wanted to play de_dust2 and (3) wanted to stay on de_dust. I then got a message asking if de_dust2 would be the next map, and proceeded to accept, seeing as how 85% of the server wanted to switch. The map ended up switching mid-round which wasn’t what I had expected. Before the game got started, [WCU] Fascist Flakes had switched it back to de_dust which I didn’t mind. An argument arose as to why the map vote had occurred, because according to Flakes “nobody on the server was complaining about the map”. In truth, players were beginning to spectate because of the one-sidedness of the current map, and those that spectated were threatened to be kicked by other admins for wasting space on the server (which again makes sense). Brian was telling us that the problem was not with map voting but with the map’s cycle of rotation and that it should be appealed on the forums (which I did), and gxti told us the same thing. The arguing continued in increased intensity and after being told that “nobody was complaining”, I was kicked from the server by Kuros.
I used this oppurtunity to go to the bathroom, and then logged back in hoping that the confrontation was done. It apparently wasn’t, and before I had even said anything on the server, Kuros started on me again. Not wanting to get into it again, I asked him to just not talk to me anymore for the moment (to avoid prolonging the ridiculous argument), in which he responded by kicking me again. I rejoined, and again stayed quiet as I logged back on. At this point, Postal had gotten into it as well, Brian had left, Fascist Flakes and Kuros were still in full gear, and gxti was trying his best to mediate.
I continued playing for awhile and then disconnected to go to a performance I was in, and that was that.
Now I had already established that it was wrong of me to have initiated a map vote, because I did not know what that entailed. I thought it would simply gather an opinion, which apparently I was mistaken. My point is that now Postal and I’s admin privileges have been revoked because we were trying to appeal to the overwhelming majority of the server. Gxti warned us, and at that moment I stopped arguing and pushing the topic because I knew it was leading to nothing good. But just because people act selfish and don’t know when to stop arguing shouldn’t mean that others get punished for it. I don’t think its right that a select few have to catch the blame of this situation, especially without warning. The situation had already de-escalated by the time anything happened, and simply because certain admins dislike other admins because of their play style or feeling of responsibility towards the server’s players doesn’t mean that they should get black listed.
That’s pretty much all I have to say.
Thank you.
I wasn’t there, but I know how you feel… It’s hard, sometimes, to do what’s best for the gameplay experience…. It seems like, if you try to fix something, you just get yelled at for meddling.
Giving the admins discretion on when to mapvote is totally legit. If there was a DRASTIC landslide (there was) of votes towards a swap, that’s 100% OK.
I, personally, will only allow a mapvote to go through it it’s more than a 75%ish victory.
I think, from all the stories I’ve been told, you guys did the right thing if there was really a 17v3 vote.
I stand behind you 100%, not that it’s worth much. I got kicked plenty today by Kuros/GXTI for a ban I made… I guess I’m not popular, but I do my job and I do it to the best of my abilities.
Regards,
Mr Freeman (the *edited* admin)
This is a none issue, By Kuros kicking you he meant for you to stay out for a while. Kind of a time out. You should have stayed out, no reason you couldnt have gone to play some cssdm and come back later.. Furthermore it has been made clear on the forums we aint rolling with mapvotes.The reason for this is the same reason why democracy can suck at times. It is just not the right thing at times, we don’t want people going all willynilly and switching it to whatever they *edited* well please, which is generally gonna be dust2/office. If we wanted that we would go to a 24/7 server. This has all been made clear elsewhere in the forums in various posts and whatnot. Keeping you own head up would have helped here. Don’t take it personally but I don’t think a topic needed to be made about this subject, the law has been handed down already. This is just gonna get me and other to run our mouths more. Not necessary in the least. Something constructive mind you would have been bringing up the subject of map rotation. There is indeed complaints from regular folks about it, some of it is just people whining about their crotchs getting stomped on a strategic map like italy or militia, others like assault and dust I’m not as favorable to. If you are gonna opine on the subject dont do it with your noob hats on, think about the real value of a map and whether the ownage is because of skill or the map
Brennanflow said:
This is a none issue, By Kuros kicking you he meant for you to stay out for a while. Kind of a time out.With all due respect to that, he doesnt have to be immature and kick him. He could simply go into vent, where Freeman was, or irc where he also was, and nicely ask him to take a cool down break.
I mean, people aren’t going to like the server if things are done in such an anal retentive way. I have a lot of suggestions, and I would like to voice them out. I will be posting a list, whether or not they’ll be considered or even agknowledged is beyond me, but still.
I, as well as Adambomb, and hopefull nodice (sucking up now) consider myself a fairly trusted friend of the club, and “Unofficial member” as i like to put it lol. I mean, who else would fly out all the way from Canada for the next lan?? So, yeah, i’m just being honest:)
and yes gxti, those
‘s were for you lol.God, how come everyone around here refers to everyone as Freeman? lol
It’s like I take the blame for everything. ;p
POSTAL DID IT, NOT ME.
I back him, though. XD
This was more about the bickering than the map vote. I understand if everyone hates dust and you would like to go somewhere else, but arguing with a co-council leader about things, especially when he’s had a *edited*ty week, is really not very bright. As much as this club respects our admins, the council leader is in charge.
Also, when admins argue, it reflects poorly on the club. This is why I repeatedly directed everyone to the forums. Kicking and slaying and switching the map back and forth is going to hurt others in the server and make the experience very unpleasant for all. I do not want to have to remove map voting just to keep things running smoothly, but if things continue in the direction they have been, that may be my only option.
Derrick (RaVeN) said:
I mean, people aren’t going to like the server if things are done in such an anal retentive way. I have a lot of suggestions, and I would like to voice them out. I will be posting a list, whether or not they’ll be considered or even agknowledged is beyond me, but still.Good, I like feedback.
Derrick (RaVeN) said:
and yes gxti, those‘s were for you lol.Die in a fire, swine!
A few comments of minor intrest…..
Not being critical of any side, even if it might seem that way.
This is all personal thought created after wandering through bazilions of pubs for years. Take it with a grain of salt.
(imna be using Kuros as my example of a high ranked admin, no offence intended at any point.)
First, When something important like a map change is in question, it is typicaly left to the highest ranked admin on the server on most servers. If Kuros was on, then it makes sence to leave any map changes up to him since hes got the Ultimate Power around here.
Second, When a vote comes up, its almost always a land slide for Yes, regardless of whats being voted on. Go and try it sometime, just make random votes, option one wins 90% of the times. Most folks don’t bother to read the votes or pay attention to em, they just mash buttons.
Third, If the map is totaly debalanced and swapping a few people won’t do, sometimes you can just wait it out and the fortunes of the teams will eventually be reversed through natural causes. However if players really were starting to spec due to the debalance, they should be kicked. There are thousands of other servers out there, and bagillions of other players. Very few of either can be considered unique.
Fourth, An admin arguing with another admin is always a Bad Thing. When in confentation, hand the problem to the highest ranked admin on. They have that rank because of thier skill/fairness/intelligence as an admin and can often solve the problem in a decent manner acceptable to the majority.
Fifth, Admins arguing publicly, whether with another admin or a player, is a Bad Thing. Players should not argue with admins in any case, because on a CS server, admins are pretty much God. Admins and Players, If they do have a problem with an admin private messages are by far the best course of action. No one wants to back down in front of someone publicly and forcing them to do so will create ill will. Don’t hang your dirty laundry in public.
Sixth, Who cares what the majority think? Most of them will be players who are just wandering through. As I said above, players are not hard to come by. Neither are servers.
Seventh, Even though I am making this post in this thread, the thread falls into the dirty laundry category. It probably would have been best to simply private message Kuros or some other high level admin and let them make any nessesary posts. Its like that one Dresden book said. Even if you win over the masses of people, if you *edited* of the one guy with a vote that counts, your still screwed.
I can’t think of anything else, I hope all of this helps, if it dosen’t yall can’t just ignore it as more of my random gibbering.
~Killty-Chan
Edit: Zomg, took too long, gxti stole my thunder.
Edit More: As a thought, why not create a system of support admins. What I mean is you could have people who only have limited admin powers when no Full admin is on. That way you could hand out SA status to regulars, without worrying about them destroying the server, but there would always be some sort of admin on during peak times.
Jackass said:
The server was currently on de_dust. There were at least 20 players on the server, and the Terrorist side was complaining that the game was uneven. As it is, de_dust is a difficult map to play. It requires lots of team strategy and no hesitation. Regardless of this, the teams did seem a little uneven, and so I swapped sides to try and help with the balance. Kuros also did some admin swapping to try and make things better, but the situation was never resolved. Lots of players were complaining that they didn’t want to play the map and so we proposed an alternative. The popular demand seemed to be that they would rather be playing de_dust2.The flaw here is that you cannot make everyone happy. Instead of deciding to institute a map switch based on one side’s complaining perhaps a better solution could’ve been resolved, such as more team swapping. You cannot make everyone happy and just because you want things changed doesn’t mean you can change them. People will ALWAYS complain whether they are winning or losing.
Jackass said:
Curiously, I started a vote to see how many people on the server actually wanted to a) switch maps and switch it to de_dust2. The results were that (17) wanted to play de_dust2 and (3) wanted to stay on de_dust. I then got a message asking if de_dust2 would be the next map, and proceeded to accept, seeing as how 85% of the server wanted to switch. The map ended up switching mid-round which wasn’t what I had expected. Before the game got started, [WCU] Fascist Flakes had switched it back to de_dust which I didn’t mind.Instituting a map vote to arguably the most popular map on CS is a no-brainer. If you had instituted a map vote to the next map in rotation and not a map most had played 4 or so maps ago then that would’ve been more feasible and more forgiving. Another thing is that you instituted a map vote during the middle of the round, I would’ve just hit a random 1 or 2 to get it out of my freaking screen, much less cared what it was about. Also, it shouldn’t matter if you “expected” it to switch or not because you should have seen what you hit in the admin window and you should have known what would’ve happened. Also, you point the finger at me and blame me for changing it back when you fail to realize that I was sitting there loading as well. I hadn’t even had enough time to hit enter to get out of the MoTD much less change it back to Dust. Another point is this, you accepted the vote even though Kuros said in chat specifically for you not to accept that vote. Us going “wtf?” in chat should have given you good enough reason to doubt your actions and not accept it at all.
Jackass said:
An argument arose as to why the map vote had occurred, because according to Flakes “nobody on the server was complaining about the map”. In truth, players were beginning to spectate because of the one-sidedness of the current map, and those that spectated were threatened to be kicked by other admins for wasting space on the server (which again makes sense). Brian was telling us that the problem was not with map voting but with the map’s cycle of rotation and that it should be appealed on the forums (which I did), and gxti told us the same thing. The arguing continued in increased intensity and after being told that “nobody was complaining”, I was kicked from the server by Kuros.If people were upset about the map then they would’ve left. People “complain” all the time as I said previously, if they were actually upset and not wanting to play the map then they would’ve left or said something more than to your team. The people whom you mention that actually went to spec are Ellaine and Postal. Both of which went to spec because they were doing horribly on their team and they couldn’t stand seeing their scores plummet anymore. Them going to spec is simply an act of immaturity and complete childishness, like a 7 year old quitting and stomping off in a fit of rage because he isn’t going to win at checkers. As gxti told you all on the server, if you have a problem with specific maps then bring it up on the forum. If we see fit that it should be removed, or even shortened, then the action will take place. Complaining about it in game will get you nowhere. Also Jackass, Kuros told you in game that ANYONE he saw complaining about the map and such would get kicked. You continued, he kicked and you had fair warning.
Jackass said:
I used this oppurtunity to go to the bathroom, and then logged back in hoping that the confrontation was done. It apparently wasn’t, and before I had even said anything on the server, Kuros started on me again. Not wanting to get into it again, I asked him to just not talk to me anymore for the moment (to avoid prolonging the ridiculous argument), in which he responded by kicking me again. I rejoined, and again stayed quiet as I logged back on. At this point, Postal had gotten into it as well, Brian had left, Fascist Flakes and Kuros were still in full gear, and gxti was trying his best to mediate.When you came into the server you said something more like “Kuros, shut the *edited* up and don’t talk to me. You’re not doing anything” (not a direct quote, but it was something more fierce than just “Don’t talk to me anymore”.) You practically asked to get kicked. Just because you were dubbed an admin did not make you god, it did not make you bulletproof, and it did not give you the right to think you can do whatever you want. Becoming an admin means that you have to take up a higher level of maturity and a higher level of restraint, both of which were not displayed.
Jackass said:
Now I had already established that it was wrong of me to have initiated a map vote, because I did not know what that entailed. I thought it would simply gather an opinion, which apparently I was mistaken. My point is that now Postal and I’s admin privileges have been revoked because we were trying to appeal to the overwhelming majority of the server. Gxti warned us, and at that moment I stopped arguing and pushing the topic because I knew it was leading to nothing good. But just because people act selfish and don’t know when to stop arguing shouldn’t mean that others get punished for it. I don’t think its right that a select few have to catch the blame of this situation, especially without warning. The situation had already de-escalated by the time anything happened, and simply because certain admins dislike other admins because of their play style or feeling of responsibility towards the server’s players doesn’t mean that they should get black listed.Your “overwhelming majority” is nothing more than waving a twinkee in front of a fat kid. You initiated a map vote to arguably the most popular map in the game, you put it in the middle of a round, AND you did it without warning or asking ANYONE. Jackass, you’ve had plenty of opportunity to read the forums and see what has happened when others instituting map votes, you’ve seen how the other admins acted and how we’ve always said that we don’t RTV or map vote or ANYTHING other than going by rotation and yet you decided you needed to take a full server into your hands and implement a map vote. Naturally I’m offended that you think I have some personal distaste or vendetta against you Jackass. I frankly don’t have anything against you, I think you’re a fine guy and quite funny at times. At the same time, I complain and whine about the Krieg/Bullpup because I have a strong distaste for the gun as well as those who abuse it. Do I go about restricting them? No, I put up with it. If you want to prove to others that I’m right and you can’t use another gun and can’t aim, go ahead. Your actions seemed less of taking responsibility towards the populous of the server and more of “God I can’t stand seeing my score suck and I think this map is one-sided so I’m going to listen to my whining team and switch the map instead of trying to take control and lead my team.”
As Brian said, if map voting was on and people could choose the maps they wanted to play then we would be running a 24/7 Dust2/Office server. People will always whine and complain about maps, can’t make everyone happy.
Just for the record, I 110% agree that admin conflict is bad. Public conflict is worse. Disobeying someone ranked higher than you is stupid.
It’s not those things I support, but the mapvote in general.
But if Kuros was there, he shoulda known better. Still, he was just trying to do what he thought was right for the server.
Several things went down that *edited*ed me off:
1. We’ve talked a zillion threads about map voting and it’s been said over and over again DON’T DO IT.
2. I asked you nicely to cancel the vote, you did not. (ma_votecancel did not work or I would have myself)
3. You did not throw a vote for a random map after I told you not to vote in the first place, and we had just played dust2.
4. You THREW ANOTHER VOTE WHEN THE MAP CHANGED BACK TO DUST…as if you didn’t get the hint already.
5. You proceeded to *edited* at me after I warned you repeatedly you were going to get kicked.
6. You came back and did the same thing after you had been kicked, apparently you didn’t get the hint again.
7. We had to strip admin powers, which makes us look really retarded for giving them in the first place.
Kuros just pulled a Killty
. He comes in and does the finishing work and has the final say while I do all the work.3 Killty
Well my point for the post was just to let people know that we weren’t trying to underine any of the higher admin’s authority. At no point did we fight back against them by trying to change the map and such. It was one mistake that escalated into an argument. There was no way I could’ve known that certain people were having a bad week, and when I stated that when I came back from my “time-out” kick by Kuros, I didn’t speak. I didn’t want to keep the arguing going, but I kept getting pulled in by snide and insulting comments by other admins which I didn’t enjoy. I’m not the kind of person to just let somebody sit there and bash me and other friends of mine when we aren’t fighting back.
But yeah, I was just wondering if stripping us of our already basic admin powers was necessary. I could understand if maybe it was like a temporary thing, but we seem to be taking the blame pretty hard for this.
Regardless, I’m sorry for the conflict.
And Kuros, that might have been Postal or someone, cause I never initiated another map vote after the first one for de_dust2. You changed it back to de_dust and that was that. And you said you were going to maybe cancel the vote, but you didn’t. I never read any text saying for me to cancel it or I would have. Thought you would have cancelled it if you wanted that to happen.
Also, when I came back, you started attacking me again which was uncalled for, because I had had enough and was staying quiet. Didn’t want anymore arguing and had already stated that I was fine with your decision and made a bad call with the map vote.
When you attacked me and I told you to not do that, you kicked me again. There was no “warnings” as you put it for either of the kicks, but I understand that you did what you felt you had to to stem the situation. Miscommunication and all. But you just made a huge list of things, but my only offenses are as follows:
1) Initiated a map vote to find out who wanted to keep playing. (1 time and 1 time only.)
2) Unintentionally switched maps mid-round. <—- accident. (1 time and 1 time only.)
3) Fired back when you and Flakes insulted/argued with me. (1 time and 1 time only.)
4) Was kicked two times. (once for each time I defended myself against an attack.)
I just don’t understand why we were attacked for one mistake, especially when we did nothing to work against your corrections or commands afterwards. Didn’t seem fair to get so much flak because people were having a bad day or week or whatever the reason was.
hmm in all that i failed to see anything said by the President of the gaming club about how people acted you guys know what ma_chat is its admin only chat you don’t fight in open chat it don’t matter who you are or how much power you fill you have . There is a reason for ma_chat its so admins can talk to each other and not put server problems in open chat . and yes if I’m in the server and people ask for another map i will start a vote because if 3/4 of the server isn’t cool with a map they will leave then you will have yourself a empty server and then it won’t matter if you like map votes or not . but it would be nice to see some of the executive council members posting about this since it has become such a problem
Thats the statement I made. Obviously, with a 17 vs 3 vote, people wanted the map change. But that is beside the point.
You’re entirely right about the private admin chat too.
Alright, now for the Falcon’s $0.02:
(and this is the last time he’s blowing $0.02 on this subject. He’s about flippin broke now…
)For the last time of many,
NO MAP IS WEIGHTED T OR CT! THERE ARE NO PRE-DETERMINED MAP ADVANTAGES! PEOPLE NEED TO LEARN SOME STRATS, MAN.
I went uber-fancy with my $0.02 and got ALL CAPS…
. so now you have heard my opinion. Next time one of these serverloads of whiners are on, if at all possible get me on the game, and tell them to watch and learn from the noob-master. And tell me to grab my mic while I’m at it. I need to bark out instructions so they can see the light.That is all, have a lovely day.
seriously, there is no such thing as a overwhelming map advantage. follow me here:
1. say t’s are frustrated because ct’s are picking them off at every possible route
response – get teh t’s to run together and plow the road
2. say t’s are running together and spanking the ct’s
response – get the ct’s together
3. say ct’s are together basically nukin the t’s as they approach
response – go the other way, stupids
4. say ct’s are p-o’ed coz the t’s are always going the other way
response – ct’s go the other way
5. say it’s assault, the most contested map ever
5a. the t’s are holding that fort tighter than, well, imagine something tight.
response – in short, use deception you silly ct’s. get some guy with teh rambo gun to make some noise at one wall and get attention while the other ct’s go the other way. or even better play smart. get snipers lined up waiting to shoot through the walls. they’re pretty thin. then get some poor bloke to run in and look around REAL quick, this will put the t’s on radar. then just line ’em up and blow ’em away. I think this works, same theory as shooting people in the vents, but never tried it.
5b. the t’s are still too tight…
response – get some kami’s. trust me, a couple o them can really turn the tides.
5c. the ct’s actually start to dominate… omg…
response – stop camping, or use different spots, you silly silly t’s
rofl freeman shove it up your [blackbar] dont try and blame it on me ahahahahha good times but just for the record i really think that the lot of us deserved getting admin removed because we thought we were something special….but w/e this server still needs a couple good admins and im gunna vote for brian to keep it (if he got it removed)
and just outa curiousity, what was the big argument about? and why did i get my admin removed? becuas ei was just telling you guys to stop talking about the maps and then i got mad at fasist..that was about it but w.e i can still push freeman around with out it
We’ve already got some good, solid admins. We need admins that play on different hours is the problem… sometimes we have as many as 4 or 5 on at once. But many times we’ve got nobody. And certain situations (like last night) where we have over half the terrorist team spawn camping could really use somebody to be able to warn them and then bring down the hammer, so to speak.
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