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The sad part is that 15% is ruining lower class for everyone else. People who fake injuries are *edited*ing cunts, my dad got in a car accident and it destroyed his vertebrae in his back the law suit barely gave him enough money…his 45 and can’t work another *edited*ing day in his life because of it. He did not fake the injury and yet because some *edited*ing piece of *edited* that doesnt do anything takes the money out of my *edited*ing check. Yes I agree with you but had kI knot contributed and you had not contributed I wouldn’t be here right now, I would be some poor insignificunt sitting on the *edited*ing corner in NY begging for change. I take it very seriously and personally knowing that I was and still am poor. I go to college to better myself and hopefully obtain a PHD in psychology but had it not been for a slight increase in taxes I would be *edited*ed right now.
There are plenty more out there just like me.
What is this concept of “hoarding money”? Do you people not know how our economic system works?
Lets say I spend $100,000 on a new car. For most, thats a lot of money. Lets think where that money goes, shall we? The dealership gets some of that 100k, employing people who work there so they can feed their kids. Part of it goes to the automaker, who employs thousands of people. People who work for them include accountants, executives, factory workers, etc. – many many people. So in effect, you are “spreading your wealth” to at least dozens, if not thousands of people in exchange for real goods and services. Even if they “sit” on their money and put it in a bank, that bank turns the money around and lends it out to a good amount of impoverished people, so they can get that leg up that they desperately need. For those of you who think people who become rich just sit on their money and it ends there should take an economics class. Forcefully taking money from citizens’ pockets and putting it places they have no control over is one of the most asinine ideas humanity has ever come up with.
I like what Bitey said and I see MasterP(lan)s point.
The taxing system should be dynamic enough to determine that you have $20,000 in legitimate debt and reduce your taxes because of it. If it doesn’t then that sucks.
If you are stupid filthy rich and can pay off $50,000 with no problem, I think being taxed isn’t going to kill a person and I believe it is right and good to have some of that money reinvested into our lower classes to help raise them up. If 1 lower class household gets aid the next generation may be middle class and the generation after that could have more options before it. Naturally the way our society works the poor class could possibly skip the middle class altogether depending on what they do, how they do it, and their resources.
It is tricky and people will get screwed. No system is perfect and someone always suffers. I’d like to at least try to help that suffering person. There are a lot worse things in life than debt.
To choose to give to those in need is charity. To be forced to give excessivley is socialism.
Despite our current problems, free-market capitalism has been extremely succesful in the United States. An incentive of high-rewards breeds motivation for hard work. Obama has said flat-out that he does not appreciate the way the constitution is set up, because it does not allow much room for wealth-redistribution (a form of socialism). He wishes to infuse elements of a contrary economic system into a functioning (although weakened) capitalist economy.
Admitedly, I am not an expert on economics, but I know enough to understand when I am about to get screwed.
The point is… drumroll please…
The government is not the proper way nor the effective way to help people.
There are legitimate charities out there that offer more than the government
possibly could. The government tries to solve problems by throwing money
at them. However there is usually more to a problem then just a lack of money.
A lot of people on welfare have a serious lack of responsibility. NOT ALL but a lot
of them do. Remember this old idiom? Give a man a fish you feed him for a day;
teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. The people need to be taught
to fish and not have one given to them. However ppl who really deserve it will have
no problems getting the help they need. I am all for helping people but not through
the government. If you give money to a charity, generally the money only goes to
help the people and keep up the organization so that it can help more people. In
the government’s case a lot of the money goes to bureaucracy and gets eaten in
the red tape. Let’s face it. Private charities can help more people with the same
amount of money. I have another old saying for you…
“The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the
people with their own money.” ~ Alexis de Tocqueville
I’m not sure why everyone hates the rich. We should look up to these people. MOST
of them made their own way to the top with hard work and sacrifice. They deserve
everything they earn. In fact, these are the people who provide you with jobs. Somebody
has to own the company you work for… Is it wrong that they realized the American Dream?
Isn’t that why we have millions of people attempting to immigrate to the United States every
year? The idea that people should pay more because they can afford more is preposterous.
In short… people who need help should and will be helped. However the government should
have no place in the matter. It should be in the hands of private charities where people who
are closer to the situation can make more accurate assessments of a person’s needs and
help the individual more effectively. The government is the worst “charity” on this earth and
it is time to start putting money into good charities that will actually help a person, not make
them dependent.
potion#9 said:
What is this concept of “hoarding money”? Do you people not know how our economic system works?Lets say I spend $100,000 on a new car.
betcha that car isn’t made by an american firm. Heh, toyotas are more american than some of the american cars. When my dad bought his first new car in a long time, he bought a toyota, and they guy said at the end, oh yeah we got this 500 off the dock fee, WTF, they make these things out in kentucky, ffs. *edited*ing union *edited*es up north, heres a hint, the union is designed to maximize your current gains so that your children don’t do the same job you are doing. Restrict the supply, increase the price, guess what? unions don’t work so good long term, especially if the southern part of your nation will work for less and is less inclined to unionize. FUN FACT: in japan on a strike the workers wear armbands and work even harder, thus shaming their employers to pay them more.
look you make a lot of money and you want to keep it, swell, but you still live pretty good. My family isn’t rich by any means, but i’ve never wanted for any of the basics. Now basics does open up some *edited*ing, yes there are those who have chosen poorly, believe me i’ve seen it, *edited* i’ve help those people. I was in kentucky on a mission trip fixing up peoples houses, providing insulation and other necessities, but by god did those people have their satellite and cable. *edited*sux that the poor don’t always make the best decisions, but here’s a hint, that’s possibly why they are still poor. i’m not saying the poor are any dumber or less able than the rest of us, far from it, but the hills seem higher when you’re at the bottom. Fun Fact: if you take to groups of equal worth and arbitarily give one poor test scores,tests like the SAT(not saying that the SAT gives out grades at random, but that one group does poorly regardless of their skill), then that group will continue to do poorly thinking that you must have to be a genius to do well, and the other group with good scores would feel that anyone should pass this “lookat my brother, he’s a retard and he’s in college”.
scholarships and grants readlily available to those who qualify and are willing to work for them, i know a lot of people who have used those grants and scholarships to great affect, my brother got a scholarship and he’s doing great. I’m all for having people help themselves, but as a whole i feel that society should help those in times of need and should provide aid, what can i say i’m a fan of government help, becuase if they don’t i bet all the money in the world, most people won’t.
however, whatever your views are, let’s all hope that these next 4 years under this new president are good ones
I am starving… can anyone on campus buy me a chickfila sandwich and bring it to hunter lab? I’ve been here all day and java city is closed
. I’ll pay you the $3 i have in my wallet! lol…Seriously tho.. I’m stuck here until 7!
There is absolutely nothing keeping people out of the middle class as it stands now. The only reason I am part of the middle class is because my grandfather slaved over an aluminum-ore vat for most of his life and saved every penny he had and my dad learned from this and had the same work and saving ethic. We had no aid, and expected none. You cannot pull yourself out of the lower classes in one generation and any attempt to do so is pointless. It takes years of spending and the correct moral, saving, and working values have to be taught to children to pull yourself out of poverty. When the government starts to intervene and take the responsibility of wealth management away from the worker, you take a critical element away from the individual, you take the experience of having to work for what you’ve earned away. I won’t begrudge anyone for wealth they’ve earned and desire no pity from anyone for not having it myself. I want to earn my wealth and once I’ve earned it I expect it to be mine, not shared amoung thousands who did nothing to help me earn it, just as I expect no money from them because I didn’t help them earn it. It’s the whole “you keep what’s yours and I’ll keep what’s mine” concept that no one seems to understand anymore.
Also, at what point does “investing in the lower class to pull them up” justify taking away a third of someone’s income? That’s like saying “oh you worked 50 weeks this year but we’re only paying you for 34.” That’s not just wrong, it’s stealing. That’s 640 hours of time someone has lost simply because someone else is being propped up by a wellfare program.
Kappamerc said:
I am starving… can anyone on campus buy me a chickfila sandwich and bring it to hunter lab? I’ve been here all day and java city is closed. I’ll pay you the $3 i have in my wallet! lol…
Seriously tho.. I’m stuck here until 7!
See, poor decision making has made you a very hungry person.
All I know is that if it weren’t for the government I wouldn’t be at this University right now. While I did get a few scholarships, of the 172 that I applied for, I only received money from 3 and that money paid for about 25% of one year here. I worked 2 jobs while in HS but that saved money wouldn’t have been enough.
My mom was sick and I couldn’t rely on her or my dad to pay my way through college because I have 3 younger siblings.
I did everything I could do and I still needed some aid. Very few were willing to help. I thought my involvement in the community, making a 98 on my 4 semester cumulative Cisco Network Acadamy exam, a high GPA, extra curricular activities such as teen court and marching band, being trade and industrial student of my county, and being the brightest tech student at my HS would have meant something to the scholarships I applied for.
The only reason I got financial aid is because my parents didn’t make enough money. Namely because my mom went crazy. My dad was too busy to help me get my license due to always having to work and my mom was so messed up that she would forget to meet me at school and take me to work so I would walk to work and then walk home. Bless her heart she was an amazing mother up until she had her last baby and was diagnosed with all sorts of things. I believe she was incorrectly diagnosed because I didn’t notice a change until they medicated her, at which point she wasn’t the same woman that raised me. Home life was tiresome and hard on me during HS. It wasn’t easy but I busted my *edited* to do better for my family. I work hard now and I worked hard then.
I don’t believe the government should ‘control everything.’ But I was thankful for the aide from my country and I will pay it back when I get out. I’ve worked multiple jobs throughout my college career to pay for everything I need and to save.
I don’t know what to think. I was helped by the system and if it weren’t for the system I might not be where I am today. My two little brothers might not have the ‘follow in my brothers footsteps’ attitude had I not been aided in some way. If someone else was willing to help my cause then fantastic but they weren’t and so I am thankful for the governments help. This generation of my family will be something more than the previous generation because of a couple of federal grants. Naturally I have loan debt but the amount I could take out wasn’t enough to cover my schooling here, even with its cheap prices.
Another way the system helped my family is, my mom died in 2004 (39yrs old), and due to her death my little brothers and sister receive money from the government because there is no way my dad, at his age, could raise a 15yr old, 13yr old, and a 4 year old on his pay, and in his health, without that aid.
It has been a long road for me and I am thankful for my government. Republican, Democrat, wtf ever. I’ll give back 10 times what I’ve taken, and I will do it gladly.
At any rate, I don’t want this to be a /crymoar post. I just meant it as a, this system helped me. Taxes helped me when I had done everything I possibly could do and no other options lay before me.
It may not be the perfect plan. It may hurt some families. But at least our president will try something. At least there is a plan to be had…
This is the end of my talk on the subject, I made my decision and its too late to change my mind. If it is a mistake then I’ll accept that. I voted for who I thought was right for the job.
This post if full of grammatical errors and I’m too lazy to fix them. I think I’ve been reading too much NoDice.
MasterP said:
See, poor decision making has made you a very hungry person.Oh wow… lol!
. Serously though, I am friggen hungry.EDIT** So I am still laughing at your comment MasterP >.<
20 minutes later x_X.
First and fore most I would like to say that I am not loyal to any political party. In past elections I have voted for the candidate who I felt could best run this country whether it be a Republican, Democrat, or any other party. This election in my opinion is very tainted for many reasons. The first being that President elect Obama received votes strictly due to race. Every news station I watched during election coverage claimed there were record numbers of voters this year. Why do you think that is? Are we as a nation going to ignore the fact that more African Americans voted for the simple fact of having a black president? This to me is not history in the making, it’s a shame. It’s a shame that a president of our country has only two years of U.S Senate experience. Obama has another eight years in the Illinois Senate, far less than his counter part John McCain. I spoke with a young voter who stated she did not think a person needed experience to run this country. She was also an individual out of work, not because of our economy, but because she is too lazy to look for a job. These are the type of people who voted for Obama. Since the election I have spoken with several other Obama supporters, and there has been a common theme. They are all without jobs, and come from middle class families, and from what I gathered they all felt as if America owes them something. They all spoke of how during tax time they would receive on average an extra one thousand dollars under Obama. People talk of how Republicans are only for the rich, yet it’s the middle class who seem to be the greedy ones. Instead of asking for handouts from the government, why are we not concerned with creating more jobs? Focus on the root of the problem, finding a short term solution such as a thousand dollar tax break isn’t the answer. How about placing a cap on how much profit an oil company can make based on the price of a barrel? Senator McCain has stressed this issue. He seems to understand that fuel runs our economy. Fuel costs affect every facet of society, from construction to your neighborhood deli. What’s President elect Obama’s plan for the fuel issue in this country? Essentially his plan is to lower the demand. Is that possible? I know that for many Americans including myself the public transportation in many cities just is not adequate enough to support his solution. Obama has admitted he has no plan to fix this problem. That alone is enough for him not to have received my vote. Senator McCain had proposed a “tax holiday” from Memorial day to Labor Day. This is not a long term fix, but it would sure help out many Americans during those three months. President elect Obama was against this idea, and in turn stated he had no plan at all. In my opinion at least McCain had an idea to help Americans out. Any idea is better than no idea at all. During an interview in January Obama stated he would like to bankrupt the coal industry. This to me is just ridiculous for a couple of reasons. The first one being that this would cause many Americans to loose their jobs creating an even higher unemployment rate. There are new technologies out there that help decrease the amount of green house gases getting into the atmosphere. Coal energy is also far less expensive to produce resulting in lower energy cost. Senator McCain was for the coal industry and willing to explore the technologies needed to make creating coal energy more environmental friendly. This is another reason why Obama did not receive my vote. Obama talks so much about change, however has no solution to either of these issues. What is really ironic about the coal issue is that a few of the states Obama won are states where the coal industry is a major contributor to there economy. States such as Pennsylvania, Colorado, and Ohio. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. I think many Americans voted believing Obama is going to wave a magic wand and fix the economy. This is a fantasy, Obama is not the first candidate to say America needs “change”. Senator McCain was unfairly put in the same “boat” as George W. Bush. There are good Republicans and not so good, and same for the Democrats. I think the country is so angry with Bush that it did not matter who the Republican candidate was, they were not going to win. A Democrat was going to be president, no matter if their candidate was black, white, blue, or green. On a side note i did not even read this i just copy pasta lol i just figured i should add this sentence near the end. let me know if it was worth reading lol. I do change my mind, this election did make history in my mind; it was the first time in my life I have truly been disappointed to be an American and am truly disgusted with our society.
OMFG – It’s The Great FN Wall of TEXT….
This message of blah blah blah will forever be burned into my retina.
Also, a record number of white people, latino people, young people, college students, and first time voters voted…
I didn’t read the whole thing because it literally hurt my eyes. But I disagree that it was only about race. It was a great achievement for our country but race wasn’t brought up to any huge extent until just before general election at which point it stopped and right after the election.
There were likely people who voted for race but there were also people who voted against Obama for race. In general, people wanted a change of pace, and Obama is extremely good at inspiring people. Does that mean he will deliver? That has yet to be seen. However, I think it is folly to suggest that this election was won because he is black.
There are MANY factors that granted him this win, including running one of the most unique and well played campaigns in the history of campaigning.
The way he used the internet and small lender donations to fund his campaign (funding was a good reason why he won – more advertising) is nothing to scoff at.
He has great leadership abilities. I personally didn’t vote for him because of race. I voted because I liked him and I agreed with more of his ideas and plans than McCains. I don’t think Obama is Jesus, perfect, whatever…
Obama won and despite his values/ideas he does have the leadership qualities of a great president. What he does with them will be seen in the years to come.
wait so you copypasta’d that nodice? I thought the spelling was too good… though I agreed with every word of it.
Hey energy was brought up, allow me to /topic it.
Considering that I’ve worked in the power industry I can tell you that coal is not going away for at least 50-60 years AFTER we find a viable alternative. If nuclear plants weren’t so feared and hated we’d have been using nuclear power a LONG time ago. It’s extremely clean and the lists of safeguards is retardedly long. Alternative “green” energy will not be the future of any nation that hopes to be a global power as you just can’t get enough of it. It takes 2-3 dams or 3-5 fields of “green” energy (wind, solar) to equal the output of one “modern” steam station (coal) and it takes 2-3 “modern” steam stations to equal the output of a single nuclear reactor. Most plants have 2 reactors, meaning that if you did a straight swap you could replace 5-8 coal fired planets with a single nuclear plant.
When you listen to politicians talk about energy solutions, keep one thing in mind. All energy comes from somewhere and the only energy that doesn’t pollute is too scarce to meet our needs. Do you want to create power at a plant that spits pollution into the air for us to breath or do you want a plant that can reprocess and reuse the fuel about a half dozen times and then bury it in the ground? The answer is fairly obvious.
On a different note, why is it that so many people say they voted for Obama because Palin was inexperienced. Considering she’s been a governor for as long as he was an *acting* senator I don’t really feel the comparison is fair. Even if it is, Obama had much less experience than McCain so I’d really rather have an experienced P and inexperienced VP than an inexperienced P and experienced VP.
is pink money # 5 really a girl? if so, what does she know about politics, can woman even vote in America?
jk <3?
Ok, so I have read every single post, except NoDice’s sorry but that was hurting my eyes, I did skim it, anyways what I came to find out is everyone’s opinions are based on the experiences that they have had, I know thats kinda “No *edited*, sherlock”, but I just thought it was interesting that it was everyone. From what I can tell none of us are completely right, and since none of us know what it was like with your particular situation there really is no point in keeping this thing going…
I would urge that a lot of you who have opinions about matters that if it is a rumor, or something you heard that you check with non-partisan sites before posting it up. There is a lot of BS I have been reading that has just been here-say that many of you have posted up. If you are basing your opinions on these rumors then it is no wonder you view some things the way you do.
Main point, do some research before you post up BS….
This debate is worthy and both sides are raising valid points. The idea that we have to know every single thing about each other in order to hold a decent debate makes no sense. If it were true, then nobody could ever debate anything, because they have never been inside their opponent’s head. If anyone thinks that somebody has given false information, call them on it and explain why it is wrong. That is how a debate works.
I’m just saying, this is a healthy debate and there is no reason to end it prematurely.
/me washes his hands of this thread
not that i dont see all sides of the story, but i just hate debates… i prefer compromises.
RIP Henry Clay
Ephraim said:
This debate is worthy and both sides are raising valid points. The idea that we have to know every single thing about each other in order to hold a decent debate makes no sense. If it were true, then nobody could ever debate anything, because they have never been inside their opponent’s head. If anyone thinks that somebody has given false information, call them on it and explain why it is wrong. That is how a debate works.I’m just saying, this is a healthy debate and there is no reason to end it prematurely.
I wasn’t saying we couldn’t debate, I was saying there was no way of you knowing why the other person feels the way they do about something, they can tell you all about it, but unless you have been there, your not gonna believe a *edited* word they say. I guess it was more a long the lines of we are not going to change anyone’s minds some of the people on this forum are extremely closed minded and refuse to see any other view point, that’s fine if that is what floats their boat, just not my cup of tea, I am more for MajorX3’s view point, I like compromises, which are very minimal in this thread…
Ephraim said:
This debate is worthy and both sides are raising valid points. The idea that we have to know every single thing about each other in order to hold a decent debate makes no sense. If it were true, then nobody could ever debate anything, because they have never been inside their opponent’s head. If anyone thinks that somebody has given false information, call them on it and explain why it is wrong. That is how a debate works.I’m just saying, this is a healthy debate and there is no reason to end it prematurely.
I wasn’t saying we couldn’t debate, I was saying there was no way of you knowing why the other person feels the way they do about something, they can tell you all about it, but unless you have been there, your not gonna believe a *edited* word they say. I guess it was more a long the lines of we are not going to change anyone’s minds most of the people on this forum are extremely closed minded and refuse to see any other view point, that’s fine if that is what floats their boat, just not my cup of tea, I am more for MajorX3’s view point, I like compromises, which are very minimal in this thread…
I also don’t like debates that end in neither side seeing anything different about the situation, what is the point of a debate if no one sees something in a new light? That is not a debate, that is an argument where emotions are high and everyone is just angry. I am not saying this particular thread has reached that but that is where it seemed it was going, hence my previous post.
Lastly I should not have to call anyone out on anything, I’d rather you figure it out for yourself instead of calling you out in public like a fool, hence why I say, do your own research, I won’t do it for you.
The idea of a debate is that you state your opinions on an issue. Your oponent searchs for flaws in your arguments, then states why they think you are wrong. Then you defend your initial position. Over time, truths become clear. If you state no examples of faulty information, nobody will take the accusation seriously. If nothing else, some people get to blow off some steam.
I like this thread. It’s cool to see the back-and-forth between debaters. It is a conversation. It is as far from a flame war as you can get.
Ephraim said:
It is a conversation. It is as far from a flame war as you can get.Trust me, I’ve been in this sort of debate before on other forums and this is like slow pitch softball compared to how spiteful and mean some of them were.
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