‘Christian’ Warriors

Home › Forum Archive › Other › Political Discussion › ‘Christian’ Warriors

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 65 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #8680
    newrayz
    Spectator

    Okay before all this, I wanted to point out that although i entitled this ‘christian’ warriors, i believe their actions or their plan of actions is far from christian. They called themselves christian warriors because they believed they were doing what God intended. Anyway, if you don’t know, they are a militia group who planned to attack some cops and use home made bombs to blow *edited* up. Do you consider them to be terrorists? If you believe them to be, then why? If not, why not?

    #99442
    MajorMajorMajor
    Spectator

    When I personally believe that “muslim” terrorist are NOT terrorist, then how can I believe “christian” terrorist are terrorist?

    #99448
    adam37
    Spectator

    I wouldnt consider them “terrorist”, but I think what they do is a little much. Would Jesus really swipe some children from their parents in Haiti? Would Jesus really make home-made bombs and blow *edited* up? Some Christians are very hypocritical.

    #99451
    MasterP
    Spectator

    NuRayZ said:

    Anyway, if you don’t know, they are a militia group who planned to attack some cops and use home made bombs to blow *edited* up. Do you consider them to be terrorists? If you believe them to be, then why? If not, why not?

    Credible sauce?

    #99456
    Duendes
    Spectator

    NuRayZ said:

    They called themselves christian warriors because they believed they were doing what God intended. Anyway, if you don’t know, they are a militia group who planned to attack some cops and use home made bombs to blow *edited* up. Do you consider them to be terrorists? If you believe them to be, then why? If not, why not?

     

    If they really did plan on doing that then I’d start leaning towards Terrorist. However, I feel as if I need a lot more information to properly classify the type of terrorist that they are (other than religious terrorists). Also, what definition do you want to apply for this argument? There isn’t just one set definition of “Terrorism” and it can get pretty twisted up.

     

    What was their reasons for using explosives and attack the police? Was it for political change, religious change, just social mayhem, etc?

     

    What exactly are their main objectives as a group? It can’t just be “cops are bad”.

     

    How was the group started?

     

    Does the group split into cells? If so, have some of the cells been known to band with other cells outside of the Christian Warriors group?

    #99460
    newrayz
    Spectator

    Duendes said:

    NuRayZ said:

    They called themselves christian warriors because they believed they were doing what God intended. Anyway, if you don’t know, they are a militia group who planned to attack some cops and use home made bombs to blow *edited* up. Do you consider them to be terrorists? If you believe them to be, then why? If not, why not?

     

    If they really did plan on doing that then I’d start leaning towards Terrorist. However, I feel as if I need a lot more information to properly classify the type of terrorist that they are (other than religious terrorists). Also, what definition do you want to apply for this argument? There isn’t just one set definition of “Terrorism” and it can get pretty twisted up.

     

    What was their reasons for using explosives and attack the police? Was it for political change, religious change, just social mayhem, etc?

     

    What exactly are their main objectives as a group? It can’t just be “cops are bad”.

     

    How was the group started?

     

    Does the group split into cells? If so, have some of the cells been known to band with other cells outside of the Christian Warriors group?

     

    I have absolutely no clue. I just saw them on the news, and thought it would be interesting to get everyone’s take on the matter. You bring up good points though. Let’s just say, ‘generally speaking’.

    #99461
    MasterP
    Spectator

    Generally speaking I want more info.

     

    If we can’t call Muslim extremists hellbent on destroying our way of life, killing innocents simply because they’re not Muslims, and replacing our laws with those of their own religious sect terrorists then it’s pretty unfair to call these guys terrorists. I’m just saying…

     

    If liberals don’t want to call those guys terrorists then it’s pretty messed up to jump on the big T-word bandwagon with these guys.

    #99462
    newrayz
    Spectator

    whoa whoa whoa cowboy, you got it all wrong. Trying to turn this into something it’s not.

     

    But i’m always game.

     

    Conservatives don’t want to call these people terrorists, but don’t have a problem calling certain muslims terrorists. har har I can make a jab too.

    i see what you’re saying tho. Drop the double standards, call all terrorizors, terrorists or don’t at all.

    #99463
    Duendes
    Spectator

    http://www.cnn.com/2…ests/index.html

     

    Yeah, I just watched a short news clip on “The Hutaree” (Christian Warriors). What they planned was a pretty much textbook terrorist attack, causing more damage with the secondary than the primary. A quick example of what I’m talking about is usually whenever a terrorist plants a bomb at a site, there’s usually a secondary bomb set to blow when more people have gathered around the site (eg: onlookers, EMS, etc). In this case, after killing the one officer, they were going to attack more of them during the officers funeral. Yeah, I’d definitely label them as a terrorist group although I’d definitely put them in two categories (religious & national liberalism or “Patriot”). What the creepy part is about The Hutaree is that they answer to “God” and there’s no way to negotiate with those kinds of terrorists. The only way to get rid of them is to cut off their finances and/or makes sure the public loses all support for them (eventually that can get the members to give up as well). Another issue is that part of their long-term goal is to break down the government in which case, they can easily have cells break off and join with others that mainly work with different terrorist groups. It’s a good thing they got caught early while the group isn’t too big.

    #99464
    Duendes
    Spectator

    Oh yeah, did I mention I used to study Terrorism & Organize Crime? ;)

    #99470
    lockEm
    Spectator

    Clearly they’re terrorists.

     

    Edit: I hate religion

    #99471
    Pink Monkey #13
    Spectator

    lockEm, cmon dude. Broad statement is broad. There are plenty of ppl able to follow whatever religion they wish to without being extremists/terrorists. In fact the vast majority do.

    #99472
    YouWinGameOver
    Spectator

    I have to agree with Duendes on this one.

    #99473
    lockEm
    Spectator

    Pink Monkey #13 said:

    lockEm, cmon dude. Broad statement is broad. There are plenty of ppl able to follow whatever religion they wish to without being extremists/terrorists. In fact the vast majority do.

     

    Yeah I know. I’m not really sure what to think about religion at this point. It’s cool if you want to believe in something to give your life meaning and whatnot, but deep down humans are monsters and religion has been the cause of so many terrible things over the ages. Religion kind of laid down the basis for our society (its wrong to steal, murder, etc) but extremists just make it seem so terrible.

    #99475
    Lemm
    Spectator

    From what I understand terrorist do things to inspire fear in their enemies. Obviously kidnapping inspires fear but only to the people who were involved and not to the country as a whole. I think these people obviously are a little off their rockers and committed kidnapping and should be punished harshly for it. I don’t think they meant to hurt anyone or inspire any fear, so I don’t believe they should be considered terrorists.

    #99476
    lockEm
    Spectator

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

    #99481
    Duendes
    Spectator

    lockEm said:

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

    Yes

    Lemm said:

    From what I understand terrorist do things to inspire fear in their enemies. Obviously kidnapping inspires fear but only to the people who were involved and not to the country as a whole. I think these people obviously are a little off their rockers and committed kidnapping and should be punished harshly for it. I don’t think they meant to hurt anyone or inspire any fear, so I don’t believe they should be considered terrorists.

    And wtf?

     

    Lemm, I think you’re referring to the Baptist group in Haiti that “abducted” those kids. That’s a completely different group/story (IMO though, although I didn’t read to far into it, I believe they’re people who didn’t realize what they were doing, but meant well).

     

    Religion has great potential since people can become passionate about it. However, passion swing both ways. It can be used for the greater good or the greater evil no matter how you see it.

    It’s like a car, although it isn’t necessary, it can greatly improve your life, transporting you places quicker and easier. However, you can also use it to plow over a miles worth of bikers, ruining other people’s lives. I wish I can say “use it at your own risk” but it’s other people misusing it who ruin it for everybody.

    crash.jpg

    Not everybody uses cars like this, but there’s always that small handful of assholes.

     

    Any more questions on Terrorism? I feel like I need to brush up on my CJ skills

    #99482
    Lemm
    Spectator

    lockEm said:

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

     

    obviously I’m not very informed

     

    hmm.. well if that is the case then i change my vote.. they are terrorists

    #99484
    torankusu
    Spectator

    lockEm said:

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

    That’s like baiting someone’s body by waiting for someone to come pick up their guns. Genius!

     

    jk.

     

    I think it’s an issue more related to propaganda than what defines a terrorist. This falls under terrorism. I think a lot of people associate terrorism with “Muslim” or someone with a Middle Eastern appearance and the media chose not to use the word “terrorist” for these white Americans. They’re perpetuating a stereotype, a mindset.

    #99487
    lockEm
    Spectator

    torankusu said:

    lockEm said:

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

    That’s like baiting someone’s body by waiting for someone to come pick up their guns. Genius!

     

    jk.

     

    I think it’s an issue more related to propaganda than what defines a terrorist. This falls under terrorism. I think a lot of people associate terrorism with “Muslim” or someone with a Middle Eastern appearance and the media chose not to use the word “terrorist” for these white Americans. They’re perpetuating a stereotype, a mindset.

     

    Yeah I agree completely. These douchebags are terrorists, plain and simple. I’m actually kind of disgusted that the media chose not to call them terrorists because they’re white, and American.

    #99491
    Duendes
    Spectator

    torankusu said:

    lockEm said:

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

    That’s like baiting someone’s body by waiting for someone to come pick up their guns. Genius!

     

    jk.

    *facepalm*

     

    lockEm said:

    Yeah I agree completely. These douchebags are terrorists, plain and simple. I’m actually kind of disgusted that the media chose not to call them terrorists because they’re white, and American.

     

    Under the US government’s definition of “Terrorism”, they are terrorists (or so I think, *edited*, they’ve been changing the definition so many times in the past decade I’ve lost track). Terrorism or not they did a bad thing.

    I’d really like to see if some cells from the KKK are going to be found to be connected to cells from Hutaree

    #99492
    MajorMajorMajor
    Spectator

    Took a philosophy class this semester. (BORE)

     

    But we did a two week study on terrorism and war, and whether or not they were morally acceptable practices. During the study we discussed Just War Theory, and the underlying principles of Jus as Bellum (The Right to go to War) and Jus ad Bello (Practices during war). I tend to not see many flaws in Just War Theory, but for those of you who are pacifist, you can check out Anti-War Pacifism and all that jazz.

     

    Link for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_War

     

    Basically if you can justify your actions, whether they are predatory, vengeful, moralistic, religious, or political, while adhering to the Just War Theory, then terrorism is fine. Most people believe that there is NEVER a moral form of terrorism as the negative right to life overrides your positive right to fight for your rights, beliefs, or whatever. (Look up Haig Khatchadourian for more on this (sp?))

     

    I believe that occasionally terrorism is called for and needed in revolutionary situations, but in the case of this story, terrorism is not called for and therefore they should be punished. There were multiple other mediums they could have conveyed their message, and resorting to violence was not a last resort. That being said, this does not adhere to Just War Theory and should not be carried out.

     

     

    Definition of terrorism: the use of violence, or threat of violence against unarmed innocents in order to gain political, religious, or predatory, goals through instilling fear.

    #99494
    Duendes
    Spectator

    Terrorism has become at least semi-successful in the past. Just look at the PLO.

    #99495
    MasterP
    Spectator

    Lemm said:

    lockEm said:

    Wasn’t their plan to kill a cop and then use bombs to kill more cops during the funeral?

     

    obviously I’m not very informed

    The priests in Haiti were completely cleared of any wrongdoing. Notice how fast the story disappeared?

     

    If I remember correctly the parents/guardians specifically asked that the kids be taken to America.

    #99497
    MasterP
    Spectator

    Whoa guys, let’s hold up a second. They were convicted by a grand jury. Anyone who keeps up with things knows that you can get a grand jury to indict anyone for anything and once you’re brought in for questioning by the jury they can question you for as long as they want with no breaks, no legal counsel, and no chance to prepare a defense. I mean let’s face it, one of the charges is carrying or possessing a firearm during the crime they were planning, last I checked you had to actually commit the crime before being charged with it. Charging someone with PLANNING to use a firearm is one thing, charging them as though they’ve already used it is entirely illegal. I seem to remember a movie about this sort of thing…

     

    I spent right at 30 seconds glancing over that article and found a charge that’s patently unconstitutional so how about we wait for some real court proceedings before we toss these guys under the buss? If it completely disappears in a few days that’s your que that this was all media hype.

     

    Btw, any takers on how long before a lib uses this as a reason for more gun control?

    #99498
    rainefardreamer
    Spectator

    if by more gun control, you mean trigger discipline, then i am all for it

    #99499
    Duendes
    Spectator

    MasterP said:

    Whoa guys, let’s hold up a second. They were convicted by a grand jury. Anyone who keeps up with things knows that you can get a grand jury to indict anyone for anything and once you’re brought in for questioning by the jury they can question you for as long as they want with no breaks, no legal counsel, and no chance to prepare a defense. I mean let’s face it, one of the charges is carrying or possessing a firearm during the crime they were planning, last I checked you had to actually commit the crime before being charged with it. Charging someone with PLANNING to use a firearm is one thing, charging them as though they’ve already used it is entirely illegal. I seem to remember a movie about this sort of thing…

     

    I spent right at 30 seconds glancing over that article and found a charge that’s patently unconstitutional so how about we wait for some real court proceedings before we toss these guys under the buss? If it completely disappears in a few days that’s your que that this was all media hype.

     

    Btw, any takers on how long before a lib uses this as a reason for more gun control?

     

    I think the “charges is carrying or possessing a firearm during the crime they were planning” part is related to conspiracy. They definitely had their motive which was easily displayed on their website, and they had traces of planning the operation via emails. I think finding a weapon on them that they were planning on using is a legitimate crime, especially when it was well documented, because they were caught conspiring an attack(<– this is the illegal part). The weapon thing is meant for a double whammy/safety. This however, is one of those iffy-laws that can be twisted around and used inappropriately but can be good when trying to put somebody away for a long time or they’ve somehow managed to get away with other crimes. A loose example can be when the feds can’t get enough evidence of violent crimes on mafias so they turn to the books.

     

    Yeap, some group’s going to use this as support for gun control for sure.

    #99500
    newrayz
    Spectator

    cops pull that double whammy *edited* all the time. My brother can attest to that. He was at home, minding his own business, just finished smoking a jay. Cop knocks on the door, explains that he’s there for a noise violation, gives my brother a ticket, and right before my brother shuts the door the cop stops him and asks, “How much marijuana do you have in your apartment?”. My brother looked at him like he was crazy, i mean he just finished his last joint. The cop without warning, enters my brothers apartment and calls in back up. They took my brother to jail for a roach. Now, you could say the cop smelled the smoke and therefore had enough of a cause to enter the apartment; or you could say the cop was a *edited* and had no right to take him to jail. how this relates to the topic i’ve now lost, but it seemed cool at the time. lol

    #99501
    MasterP
    Spectator

    Duendes said:

    I think finding a weapon on them that they were planning on using is a legitimate crime, especially when it was well documented, because they were caught conspiring an attack(

    That’s all well and good but the article doesn’t mention that they found weapons on them. In fact it doesn’t mention anything about the scene of their arrest at all. It doesn’t even mention that they actually found IED parts in their possession.

    #99503
    MasterP
    Spectator

    NuRayZ said:

    cops pull that double whammy *edited* all the time. My brother can attest to that. He was at home, minding his own business, just finished smoking a jay. Cop knocks on the door, explains that he’s there for a noise violation, gives my brother a ticket, and right before my brother shuts the door the cop stops him and asks, “How much marijuana do you have in your apartment?”. My brother looked at him like he was crazy, i mean he just finished his last joint. The cop without warning, enters my brothers apartment and calls in back up. They took my brother to jail for a roach. Now, you could say the cop smelled the smoke and therefore had enough of a cause to enter the apartment; or you could say the cop was a *edited* and had no right to take him to jail. how this relates to the topic i’ve now lost, but it seemed cool at the time. lol

    So your argument is that the cop can’t arrest him because he smells the smoke and by your own admission he just finished smoking the last of an illegal narcotic?

     

    That’s why I love you pro-marijuana guys. The whole “yeah it’s illegal but it shouldn’t be and isn’t fair so I’ll do it anyway and QQ when I get in trouble” thing makes me lol every time. The only reason I want it to stay banned is so you guys can keep making my day. :)

Viewing 30 posts - 1 through 30 (of 65 total)
  • The forum ‘Political Discussion’ is closed to new topics and replies.