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So, I recently purchased a 50″ LG Plasma 3DTV (LG 50PZ750). After previously using a LG 32″ LCD tv, I’m definitely noticing some input lag while gaming. Particularly while playing Black Ops. It seems to be around a half a second (which is HUGE). My monthly ratio took a dive from over 2 to 1.5 (that’s with extra leet try-hard pants on).
Sadly, I believe the TV is causing the problem. I still have a few things to investigate when I get home today… but for now you can see me vent on the internet.
- I’ve read that when switching TV’s, you should reset your display configuration on the PS3. I still have not done this.
- I currently use a AV Receiver in between the PS3 and the TV (Never bothered me with the 32″ LCD).
- I have been using “Game Mode” on the tv- which is supposed to remove most of the picture quality enhancing stuff to improve the speed of gaming. It doesn’t seem to be helping. I plan on looking to see if there is anything else that I can disable, but I don’t think so..
- I currently run a OSD (On screen display) on the Receiver for volume control / menu stuff. I’ll try to disable that if it helps.
- I also need to check to see if there are any up-scaling features enabled on the receiver.
The fact that it worked fine on my other TV has got me thinking that it’s just the TV and that I can no longer enjoy Console gaming in a home theater-like setting.
I’ve googled for a while trying to see if anyone has calculated the input lag on this tv.. I haven’t found it anywhere. Of course the manufacturers don’t advertise it anywhere.
There’s a reason plasma is getting cheap as dirt, LED LCD is where it’s at.
Try removing the AV receiver completely and plug directly into the TV. You shouldn’t have to reset anything on the PS3, but you should probably try to anyway. Tbh, if you have to reset the PS3 settings every time you change TVs that’s really another giant negative for the console.
Removing the receiver produced an unnoticeable difference.
It’s the tv. Apparently this years models of LG’s (Both LCD and Plasma) are really bad for input lag.
LCD LED TV’s may be getting better in quality, but from what I’ve read Plasma tv’s still beat them as far as gaming. (This coming from the forums at avsforum.com )
I was able to tweak some more settings in one of the ISF modes turning off color correction, edge correction .. stuff like that and setting the aspect ratio to “Just Scan”.
I still don’t think I will be happy with this…
From what I’ve read Panasonic makes the best gaming tv’s this year.. but I’m open to anyone else’s input because I’m thinking of returning this TV.
Uhm, no. My parents have a 55″ Samsung LED-LCD and my home theater PC players CoD just fine on it with no input lag at all.
If the PS3 is the only thing having issues with it, maybe you should just take that back instead
They all have input lag…
It’s just how much. From what I’ve read, the good ones only have 15ms-30ms — but they are also not the best quality tv’s for viewing movies.
It also makes a difference which input you are using although I assume you are using HDMI.
Do you happen to know which model they have?
Lemm said:
They all have input lag…
It’s just how much. From what I’ve read, the good ones only have 15ms-30ms — but they are also not the best quality tv’s for viewing movies.
Well so do computer monitors.
There is no correlation between input delay and picture quality. All input delay is the same. What you’re thinking of is processing delay and yeah the more the TV does to the picture the longer it’s going to take to process. This is why I tell people to avoid TVs that do a ton of picture correction and processing, if you want to do any sort of gaming or frequently watch fast-paced movies you really need to turn most of that off. If the TV is truely good, it won’t need a laundry list of post-processing features, it’ll have a good picture all by itself. That said, if you think you can just take the TV out of the box, turn it on, and enjoy it with default settings, well, you’re probably a mac user.
Lemm said:
It also makes a difference which input you are using although I assume you are using HDMI.
Of course
Lemm said:
Do you happen to know which model they have?
UN55C6900. Only 120hz but for $1800 it was a deal that couldn’t be beat and with an hour or so of adjusting settings it looks every bit as good as a 240hz and performs flawlessly in console and PC gaming. Bluray looks really nice on it as well.
Everywhere I have looked called it input lag, but whatever I am talking about the processing time.
AFAIK I have turned everything off but I’m planning on seeing what service mode yields me as far as features I can disable tonight.. (I doubt anything) I also managed to find the unlock code for the ISF calibration.. so I will see if I can turn anything off that way.
If I still can’t get anything better out of this tv.. I think I will go with http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-TC-P50GT30-50-Inch-Plasma/dp/B004MME76K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1311017157&sr=8-1
$1345 3D Plasma. Supposed to only have around 15ms – 30ms lag.. the best set I’ve read with any serious testing done to it. It’s also supposed to have great picture quality.
BTW plasmas have < 1 ms of latency as apposed to lcd’s .. it all processing time.
Is the PS3 the only thing you’re having trouble with? If so have you tried resetting it like you described in the OP?
Panasonic makes good capacitors, other than that I’d never buy any other product they make.
Btw, the TV you linked to seems to have a serious issue with fluctuating brightness.
MasterP said:
Is the PS3 the only thing you’re having trouble with? If so have you tried resetting it like you described in the OP?
PS3 is only game system that I currently play.. and yes … I did try that. It’s only meant to reset video settings (in case you have it locked in hdmi out and you want to reset it). You can do everything I did in the system menus.
It’s not the ps3. It’s funny because my 32″ LG LCD plays great but when it comes to a higher end model the lag is a LOT higher.
Literally the only difference between my previous setup is the tv.
Lucky for me Amazon has a great return policy on HDTV’s … FREE RETURN SHIPPING W00T!
What why? I’ve tested it on 2 tv’s in my apartment already.. One works fine the other has the lag.
I’m going to try to get my money back while I hopefully still can.
Lemm said:
What why?
You may find that the bug is more common than you think.
I have a hard time believing that a brand new LG plasma has a problem like this.
mayhaps you got a bad TV? the 42″ LG LCD I bought at the beginning of the year doesn’t have a noticeable input lag…
From what I’ve read the LED LCD’s of the same line this year have the same problem.
I’m guessing it’s only a 100ms lag. Whatever it is – it’s unnoticeable to me to anything except gaming. Even then I only notice it on certain games that require a quick reaction time like CoD. However; I play those games a lot more than others.
Lemm said:
From what I’ve read the LED LCD’s of the same line this year have the same problem.
Sauce?
I have the wii hooked up to the other tv. I don’t play any FPS on the wii anyway, so I don’t think I would be able to tell. It’s also a different resolution and a different port (which both would affect the lag in different ways).
It’s not an accurate comparison, but I will hook it up when I get home.
I’ve already called for them to come pick the tv up anyway. I’ll do more research before I buy another tv. However, if anyone is looking for an awesome deal on a good tv (it really does have a great picture) that is horrible for fast paced gaming.. Amazon has a great deal on a LG 50″ 3d plasma with two pairs of glasses for around 1000 with free shipping.
Further evidence:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1166196
Scroll down until you see 2011 models and the LG PZ550. It shows a lag of 100-117 ms. My model is the PZ750.. one step up, same generation of tv’s.
Nickname said:
Aren’t the 3D tvs like way worse for lag than their non-3D counterparts?
I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I would imagine it shouldn’t make a difference if 3d is turned off.
Nickname said:
Aren’t the 3D tvs like way worse for lag than their non-3D counterparts?
3D TVs are way worse at alot of things than their non-3D counterparts.
MasterP said:
Nickname said:
Aren’t the 3D tvs like way worse for lag than their non-3D counterparts?
3D TVs are way worse at alot of things than their non-3D counterparts.
Like what… source?
More “input lag”, picture quality takes a hit, they’re more expensive, and the circuit boards are more prone to failure and more expensive to repair/replace when they do.
Sources are Amazon, Google, and common sense.
Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn’t mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it’ll also have the “input lag” because it’s signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.
MasterP said:
More “input lag”, picture quality takes a hit, they’re more expensive, and the circuit boards are more prone to failure and more expensive to repair/replace when they do.
Sources are Amazon, Google, and common sense.
More “input lag” – this may be true but I haven’t seen anywhere that flat out says this.
Picture quality only goes down when you have 3D enabled. Without it, it displays the same as any 2D tv. That is an argument for 2D vs 3D, not the actual tv.
And the money issues are the cost of new technology.. buy a warranty.
MasterP said:
Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn’t mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it’ll also have the “input lag” because it’s signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.
That’s not true. If the tv’s native resolution is different than the source, extra picture processing is required to re-size the image. Google running a nes on 1080p tv.
Quote:
Part IWhy do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two “native” resolutions. A set’s native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must “scale” the resolution you input in order to display it.
On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.
However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can’t output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn’t that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a “Game Mode” to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about “Game Mode” later into the FAQ.
Source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125
This is what I want to get instead:
http://flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1300800238
Quote from same article:
Quote:
Input lag is lower than on the 2010 models, and was measured to 18-25 ms. The level of input lag depends on the circuits enabled and IFC adds to input lag. Input lag on Panasonic GT30 is also lower than on most LCD/LED models. This also means that GT30 is great for console gaming.Another test of input lag on same set showing ~24ms:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1166196 (First TV shown)
It’s about $300 more than the tv I currently have / am returning, but it’s also slightly better viewing. Seems to be worth it to me since with 2 tv’s I don’t have to fight my gf (as much) for gaming time.
Lemm said:
MasterP said:
Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn’t mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it’ll also have the “input lag” because it’s signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.
That’s not true. If the tv’s native resolution is different than the source, extra picture processing is required to re-size the image. Google running a nes on 1080p tv.
NES doesn’t use component input. It would use either coax or RCA, both of which have resolution upscaling enabled by default on the TV. Since no modern gaming devices use it, the upscaling hardware isn’t going to be fast because it doesn’t need to be. On the NES, even on older 1980s-era TVs there was a delay between when you pushed the button and when mario jumped. This has nothing to do with the TV and everything to do with playing a console running on a 2 MHz processor.
Take your TV apart and look for yourself. I’ve yet to see a TV where conponent and HDMI weren’t treated the same. HDMI has to go through a couple filters to seperate everything out but in terms of the actual picture itself, it’s identical.
As to resizing, look in the Nvidia control panel and you’ll see options relating to HDMI-TV picture scaling. EVERY device scales a 1080p output differently and not every TV displays the same 1080p signal in an identical manner. TVs automatically scale and adjust every input, even 1080p, to match what its chipset thinks 1080p should be. Perfect example, I’ve yet to get my ION’s rendition of 1080p to perfectly match an HDTV’s 1080p resolution, I ALWAYS have to manually adjust it on the PC side and end up with a weird resolution. The TV takes this weird resolution and displays it regardless. Can I tell a difference in 1080p movies? Nope. Any “input lag” in MW2 or L4D2? Nope.
I mean really, if scaling created lag problems don’t you think it would be a problem with PC monitors too? I’ve never heard of scaling lag on computer monitors. Change your PC resolution to something really weird and you’ll notice that the monitor scales it to full screen and keeps on trucking.
Quote:
Part IWhy do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two “native” resolutions. A set’s native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must “scale” the resolution you input in order to display it.
On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.
However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can’t output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn’t that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a “Game Mode” to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about “Game Mode” later into the FAQ.
I’ll see your AVS Forum writeup and raise you your TV’s own instruction manual. Flip to the PC input section and you’ll find a table of natively supported resolutions. It’ll be more than one or two and 640×480 is most definately one of them. LED LCDs almost universally support 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, both with and without scaling.
Just try an XBOX360 or Wii on it, I think you’ll notice a difference. Enable game mode if you think it’ll help but disable all the other extras like MPEG balancing and noise filtering.
MasterP said:
Lemm said:
MasterP said:
Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn’t mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it’ll also have the “input lag” because it’s signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.
That’s not true. If the tv’s native resolution is different than the source, extra picture processing is required to re-size the image. Google running a nes on 1080p tv.
NES doesn’t use component input. It would use either coax or RCA, both of which have resolution upscaling enabled by default on the TV. Since no modern gaming devices use it, the upscaling hardware isn’t going to be fast because it doesn’t need to be. On the NES, even on older 1980s-era TVs there was a delay between when you pushed the button and when mario jumped. This has nothing to do with the TV and everything to do with playing a console running on a 2 MHz processor.
Take your TV apart and look for yourself. I’ve yet to see a TV where conponent and HDMI weren’t treated the same. HDMI has to go through a couple filters to seperate everything out but in terms of the actual picture itself, it’s identical.
As to resizing, look in the Nvidia control panel and you’ll see options relating to HDMI-TV picture scaling. EVERY device scales a 1080p output differently and not every TV displays the same 1080p signal in an identical manner. TVs automatically scale and adjust every input, even 1080p, to match what its chipset thinks 1080p should be. Perfect example, I’ve yet to get my ION’s rendition of 1080p to perfectly match an HDTV’s 1080p resolution, I ALWAYS have to manually adjust it on the PC side and end up with a weird resolution. The TV takes this weird resolution and displays it regardless. Can I tell a difference in 1080p movies? Nope. Any “input lag” in MW2 or L4D2? Nope.
I mean really, if scaling created lag problems don’t you think it would be a problem with PC monitors too? I’ve never heard of scaling lag on computer monitors. Change your PC resolution to something really weird and you’ll notice that the monitor scales it to full screen and keeps on trucking.
Quote:
Part IWhy do HDTVs lag on video games?
HDTVs typically only have one or two “native” resolutions. A set’s native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must “scale” the resolution you input in order to display it.
On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.
However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can’t output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn’t that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a “Game Mode” to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about “Game Mode” later into the FAQ.
I’ll see your AVS Forum writeup and raise you your TV’s own instruction manual. Flip to the PC input section and you’ll find a table of natively supported resolutions. It’ll be more than one or two and 640×480 is most definately one of them. LED LCDs almost universally support 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, both with and without scaling.
Just try an XBOX360 or Wii on it, I think you’ll notice a difference. Enable game mode if you think it’ll help but disable all the other extras like MPEG balancing and noise filtering.
You’re speaking of “Supported Resolution” not “Native Resolution”.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution
Quote:
Some commentators also use this term to indicate a range of input formats that the display’s input electronics will accept and often include formats greater than the screen’s native grid size even though they have to be down-scaled to match the screen’s parameters (e.g., accepting a 1920×1080 input on a display with a native 1366×768 pixel array). In the case of television inputs, many manufacturers will take the input and zoom it out to “overscan” the display by as much as 5% so input resolution is not necessarily display resolution.And yes, up-scaling has to be done for 720p / 480p sources even though they are “supported” because of this “Grid”. Obviously some tv’s handle it better than others. If they were passed straight through they would take up a smaller portion of the screen not being stretched.
I will try out the Wii for you, but even if you are right and the Wii shows no lag -the TV is no good to me if it plays the Wii correctly and not the PS3.
Lemm said:
You’re speaking of “Supported Resolution” not “Native Resolution”.
Supported and native are really a same difference. If stretching the input takes .25-.33 of a second, you’ve bought a *edited* poor TV. Supported means “I can take this and display it in such a manner that the user can’t tell a difference.” For example, you never see input lag issues with PC monitors even when people aren’t using the “native” resolution. Problems only occur when the scaling is done with either too many upscale processes enabled or when an upscale process is attempted with slow chips. All “game mode” does is disable a large number of the pre-processing operations.
Lemm said:
I will try out the Wii for you, but even if you are right and the Wii shows no lag -the TV is no good to me if it plays the Wii correctly and not the PS3.
True but what happens if your next TV is the same way?
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